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Pshark (pshark)
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Username: pshark

Post Number: 1641
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 99.191.73.216
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 3:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ms. M, Joan Baez was part of the biggest Rock Fest, Woodstock
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JAI NANCE (rhythm66)
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Username: rhythm66

Post Number: 5820
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 138.238.41.26
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

THERE SHOULD JUST BE A-[HALL OF MUSIC HISTORY]WITH ALL THE DIFFERENT CATAGORIES UNDER ONE ROOF BUT IN IT'S OWN SECTION-ROCK-RAP-SOUL-R&B-FOLK -DISCO,THEN THIS POST WOULDN'T BE HERE AND WE'D ALL BE HAPPY...WELL ACTUALLY I'M PRETTY HAPPY NOW BUT THAT'S A SUBJECT FOR ANOTHER DAY..I'M OUT!
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Ms. M (ms_m)
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Username: ms_m

Post Number: 9038
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 70.144.143.47
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

R&B singers are often a part of jazz festivals but that doesn't make them jazz singers Pshark.

Jai, I think you're on to something. I like that idea and it makes perfect sense.
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JAI NANCE (rhythm66)
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Username: rhythm66

Post Number: 5822
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 138.238.41.26
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 4:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

IT'S DOES??...OHHHH YES IT DOES THANK YOU MS M...[AND THE DOCTORS SAID THESE HOOCH HULLUCINATIONS WOULDN'T AMOUNT TO ANYTHING]!!
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kamasu (kamasu)
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Username: kamasu

Post Number: 6824
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 65.54.97.192
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 4:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was going to say that Ms. M, maybe it should be the Popular Music Hall Of Fame.
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Ms. M (ms_m)
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Username: ms_m

Post Number: 9041
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 70.144.143.47
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 4:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it makes more sense than having a separate hall of fame for a particular genre. I also think it would open up the field to be more inclusive of artist that are deserving of recognition and often left out.

Not so sure about the popular tag though Kam because then people will argue about what is and is not popular....LOL....
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tresjolie (tresjolie)
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Username: tresjolie

Post Number: 4440
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 206.53.144.59
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 7:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Splanky- great post! I hear you. I mean Max Roach influenced countless drummer across the music spectrum, so yes there are genres that definitely influence other genres.

In regard to jazz- I STILL hear the arguement that bebop and hard bop are not jazz!lol. I remember a friend of mine Hugh Fordin stating how there was such a backlash against Django Rheinhardt when he went "electric" that he had to leave the country! Electric has NO business in jazz. Hey that is the thought of some. There are some who take straight ahead jazz (no vocals) although you can't deny a Betty Carter or a Shirley Horne. But yeah, you hit on some great points.

But yeah-i never got how they cut blacks out of rock n roll. But then again, whenever a genre of music crosses over, the powers that be will try and cut out the originators. That's why I don't care for the RRHOF and their voting/induction processes don't sway me one bit.

But bro-Limp Bizkit and Korn? Can you say "where are they now"? Those were fads-hip hop is not a fad. Never was, never will be :-)
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midnightman (midnightman)
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Username: midnightman

Post Number: 1502
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.190.181.80
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 8:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's a part of rock & roll.

Just don't induct the fads. As long as they induct the real rap legends, I ain't got no problem whatsoever with it.
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Garo (gary_james)
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Username: gary_james

Post Number: 1571
Registered: 5-2004
Posted From: 70.20.233.158
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 8:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is a Hall Of Music History with all different categories, it's called The Grammy Awards.
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midnightman (midnightman)
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Username: midnightman

Post Number: 1505
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.190.181.80
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't you mean the Shammy's, Garo?

I'm with splanky, these awards are nothing but promotional ploys at the end of the day.
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Timmy Funk (timmyfunk)
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Username: timmyfunk

Post Number: 2067
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 24.187.171.68
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 12:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agreed, midnightman. The Grammys represent the biggest sham in the record industry. Every time I look at the list of artists that have never been nominated or never won a Grammy, you're looking at some of the most influential players in the game.

I don't know if I give the RRHOF that much cred either. But I do feel that the absence of categories (which is what acceptance is really all about) means that a wide range of influential artists get recognized. And while they may come off as promotional ploys, they also definitely represent added income for the artist that's inducted as well as added attention being payed to the artists catalog by younger record buyers.

I can remember like it was yesterday when P-Funk got inducted. Capitol Records waisted no time in slapping a sticker on every copy of "Computer Games" that stated "Rock And Roll Inductee-Class of 1997". Soon after, that album as well as other Parliament, Funkadelic and Bootsy Collins albums started selling at a respectable pace.

And you can say what you want about Limp Bizkit, Korn, Anthrax, and Faith No More, but their rap/metal hybrid was selling records for a good part of 1990's. You can "where are they now" to damn near everyone who gets inducted into the RRHOF. Isn't that the point?

Slight correction, tresjolie-soul music did not pre-date Rock and Roll, unless you want to start it's evolution with either Ray Charles or Sam Cooke. That term really begins to emerge in the early sixties.
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midnightman (midnightman)
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Username: midnightman

Post Number: 1507
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.190.181.80
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 2:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've heard soul music didn't become its own genre until music from Motown and Stax became popular. Rhythm and blues music in the 1940s and blues music from two decades prior predated rock 'n' roll music.
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Timmy Funk (timmyfunk)
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Username: timmyfunk

Post Number: 2068
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 24.187.171.68
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 6:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Exactly, midnightman. I almost see the evolution of African-American popular music this way:

1940's-Rhythm And Blues

1950's-Rock And Roll

1960's-Soul

1970's-Funk

1980's-Rap

1990's-maybe New Jack Swing

2000's-Neo Soul (if that's even a legitimate genre)

It is by far not a perfect model, but it works to some degree for me.
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tresjolie (tresjolie)
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Username: tresjolie

Post Number: 4442
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 206.53.144.162
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 8:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No Timmy- because if you want to use the criteria of selling records (limp bizkit, etc) then you can throw vanilla ice in there and since he sampled Play That Funky Music, well hell put him in there. Except for maybe anthrax-who came out WAY before limp bizkit, korn, etc. they were fads that came and went. They were gimmicks. No one even takes them seriously as far as musicianship.
Anthrax on the otherhand helped give rise to another "form" of heavy metal-what they called thrash music-them, slayer, metallica, etc.

And as far as soul, it influenced rock music. Rhythm and blues influenced rock n roll (ask Peter Townsend or Eric Clapton who their influences are). They were referring to doo wop as rock n roll (and still do if you go to any doo wop show) from almost the beginning, so rock n roll didn't just start in the 60s. and even if it did, hip hop didn't start until 20 years later so please let me know how hip hop influenced rock n roll? And the limp bizkit analogy won't work. And if Run DMC used rock guitar riffs in their songs, that means rock influenced THEM not the other way around.

The RRHOF is not an organization who puts people in based on "what the kids like and what's been around." They have their criteria (whatever it is now).
We need to stop sweating the organizations to validate black music. Let their be a hip hop hall of fame and keep it moving.
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Soulster (soulster)
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Username: soulster

Post Number: 1918
Registered: 2-2007
Posted From: 72.201.107.59
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 8:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They have every right to be in!

Just don't ask this question on any forum dominated by rock fans! All manner of hate and racism will come out!
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Timmy Funk (timmyfunk)
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Username: timmyfunk

Post Number: 2069
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 24.187.171.68
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 9:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your assertion that the aforementioned bands represent "fads" could easily be debated, as I have heard many musicians cite those bands as an influence. Regardless, they were still a major presence for most of the decade, sold plenty of records, altered the landscape of popular music (if only temporarily) and were in the game far longer than Vanilla Ice.

Just as the point was made that jazz festivals around the globe incorporate musical acts that aren't necessarily jazz, the RRHOF, if it wants to remain relevant in the 21st century, needs to recognize the evolution that Rock and Roll taken over the past 50 years. While it's induction process remains imperfect, recognizing one of the most vital chapters in American popular music seems like common sense to me.

Overall, the point is that Rap music and hip hop culture's influence on popular music and culture is undeniably staggering. Staggering enough that it would be a no-brainer for an organization like the RRHOF to recognize that genre. Rap music IS pop music at this point. It is the new Rock and Roll and has been since the beginning of the nineties.
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dennis_coffey (dennis_coffey)
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Username: dennis_coffey

Post Number: 89
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 76.226.11.165
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 11:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Everyone. Last year I played at the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Museum events twice. Once with guitarists Larry Carlton and John Pizzarelli to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Gibson 335 guitar. The second time I went to play with guitar legend and inventor Les Paul. Also on the show were guitarists James Burton (Rickie Nelson, Elvis), Duanne Eddy, Billy Gibbons (ZZTop), The Ventures, Jeff "Skunk" Baxter (Doobie Brothers, Steely Dan), Steve Lukather (Toto), Barbra Lynn, Lonnie Mack, Richie Sambora (Bon Jovi), and Slash (Guns N'Roses). It was remarkable how respectful all these gutarists were of one another as we all played backup chords and took turns taking solos with Les. They were both great events. I also went to an event hosted by the Rhythm & Blues Foundation and was awarded a Motown Funk Brothers Award. I got to know Chuck D from Public Enemy (the first group that sampled my work) at that event. I have also been presenting to the young 20-30 year old techno supporters and DJs at Red Bull events in Detroit, Chicago, and Barcelona, Spain. I finally realized that all of these groups define the music they like or appreciate. I create music that I like and don't get hung up on awards and the people that give them out. The public will decide what music they like as long as they are exposed to all forms of music. My challenge is to create new music to educate the public on what can be done. I have a lot of fun doing it and the people do respond.
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tresjolie (tresjolie)
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Username: tresjolie

Post Number: 4443
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 206.53.144.162
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 2:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Timmy- actually those fads can't easily be debated. Faith No More were one hit wonders. Korn and Limp Bizkit did not dominate a decade in music. They got their burn off of 2 albums tops and that was mostly due to MTV jumping on the bandwagon- which they do. Please-no one is citing limp bizkit as an influence. Fred Durst was a clown. Boy bands dominated most of the decade. And if someone were to say induct Backstreet Boys, they'd be shot.

A fesitval is different from a hall of fame. That is comparing appples to oranges. Rock n roll has not involved into hip hop.

RRHOF is not the Pop Music Hall of Fame. If the RRHOF wants to remain relevant, they need to stop bowing down to pressure to induct people who have no business in there and induct artists that DO belong in there. Madonna? No.

Now if there was a Black Music Hall of Fame, then that would be different.
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Timmy Funk (timmyfunk)
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Username: timmyfunk

Post Number: 2072
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 24.187.171.68
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 8:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The fact is that all of those bands made their time in the spotlight work for them. And don't laugh when they get inducted in the next decade, which they probably will. Remember that rap, above everything else, has proven it's relevancy and the RRHOF is recognizing that.

Whether it's a organization like the RRHOF or any Jazz or Blues festival, the point is that you can't be myopic in terms of what brings in the crowds, the interest, and lastly the recognition.

No one is going to tell me that an innovator and originator like Grandmaster Flash doesn't belong in the RRHOF. I don't buy into any strict or rigid definition of Rock and Roll. If it moves the masses, especially those that make up the "have-nots", then it is indeed Rock and Roll.

In other words...agree to disagree.
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jillfoster (jillfoster)
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Username: jillfoster

Post Number: 1303
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.54.155.14
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 9:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well... we know that rap artists certainly weren't innovators when it came ot their "Look" and style of dress... take a look at this clip from 1968 as proof of that!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =x0N4sv3bueE
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Timmy Funk (timmyfunk)
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Username: timmyfunk

Post Number: 2073
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 24.187.171.68
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 9:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If that was your attempt at a joke....booooiiiiinnnnnngggg!! !!!

Keep digging that hole jill. You'll hit China by midnight.
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Ms. M (ms_m)
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Username: ms_m

Post Number: 9075
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 68.221.15.37
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 9:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jillfoster I'm not a fan of hop hop fashion but I would think twice if a brother came knocking on my door in this day and age in this 70's ensemble:-)





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jillfoster (jillfoster)
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Username: jillfoster

Post Number: 1305
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.54.155.36
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 9:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Timmyfunk...Of course it's not a joke, it's the truth, right there in front of your eyeballz. And the genre itself is stolen, You cite groups as the Sugarhill gang and grandmaster flash as being "innovators" and "originators", when all they did was steal from jamaican artists from the 60's and claim it as their own... just a bunch of damn posers!

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f ullpage.html?res=940DE4D6133FF 936A25755C0A96E948260

(Message edited by jillfoster on March 01, 2009)
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jillfoster (jillfoster)
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Username: jillfoster

Post Number: 1306
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.54.155.36
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ms. M... that is a HOT outfit!! I liked it then, and I like it now!
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Ms. M (ms_m)
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Username: ms_m

Post Number: 9076
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 68.221.15.37
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 9:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hahahahahahaha...lawd I should have known...hahahahaha
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jillfoster (jillfoster)
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Username: jillfoster

Post Number: 1307
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.54.155.36
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 10:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And here is some more facts on the history of rap:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U -Roy
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Ms. M (ms_m)
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Username: ms_m

Post Number: 9077
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 68.221.15.37
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 10:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jillfoster I really don't understand your hatred for the hip hop genre. I'll admit as a rule it does nothing for me. Not even old school hip hop with a few exceptions but I don't see it all as the devil you make it out to be.

I bet you're a purist jazz lover too aren't you? You probably think bebop and fusion are nothing but bastard children of the Wynton Marsalis school of pure jazz genre, right? That's the only way I can explain your disdain since you seem to generalize all hip hop/rap. People like what they like but I've never seen such a harsh reaction as the one you display.

A few months back I was listening to a new Ice Cube cut. The lyrics were filled with cursing but I had to admit the message was very much on point.
He was pointing out how a lot of the thing his generation learned came from our generation and as much as I hated to admit it, he was correct in his examples. Not all hip hop/rap is crass, vulgar and commercialized.
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Timmy Funk (timmyfunk)
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Username: timmyfunk

Post Number: 2075
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 24.187.171.68
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Man, are you misinformed.

The first string rappers(Afrika Bambaattaa, Grandmaster Flash, etc.) took their cues from the Funk bands that reigned supreme in the second half of the seventies. That clip you posted is so far out of the realm of thought for most rappers.

The second string(Run DMC, LL Cool J, Kurtis Blow) were mainly reflecting the current fashions that many in their own communities were sporting. That could be said for most of the prominent players in Rap music that came afterward.

I can see that I really need to recommend a number of books that deal with the history of hip hop culture, so that you won't come off so...lost in the wilderness, let's say.
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jillfoster (jillfoster)
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Username: jillfoster

Post Number: 1308
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.54.98.110
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 11:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ms. M, I wouldn't call my attitude "anger", more "passion"... I realize it comes across as anger on message boards because of my brash writing style. I just feel that rap is a cancer on the black community. It shows the worst in people. Back in the day, a musician could make political commentary in his music, and people would really LISTEN to it, because it was delivered in a non-threatening package, it talked more about love than hate, more about uniting than divisiveness. Look at songs like "Mercy Mercy Me", and "Year Of Decision", both make bold statements, statements that are worthwhile to mankind. How is singing about drugs, sex, and violence (Actually, it's not singing, it's just a way that people without the TALENT to sing can get famous)supposed to be something that is good to be embraced by the black youth of today? Just because it makes money, people embrace it, but how cheaply will some people sell their souls? Rap sells in the same way that porn sells.. because it's dirty, and many parents don't like it. A person used to be able to be proud of their musical heritage, you think people 50 years from now will look back on rap music with pride? Or Shame? And I actually don't like jazz at all... but it's a respectable genere, steeped in tradition, artsitry, and talent... and worthy of respect, even though it's not my taste. I will concede that Hip-hop is not as bad... It's been a bit of guilt by association.... and rap did not start out to be this horrible thing, it just evolved into it, once people found out they could make alot of money by pandering to the lowest common denominator, and the darkest corners of the human mind.

(Message edited by jillfoster on March 02, 2009)
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Ms. M (ms_m)
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Username: ms_m

Post Number: 9084
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 68.221.15.37
Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 12:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jillfoster I see your point but I also understand how times have changed.

I look at it this way, when we were growing up Dr King's way, was the way of our parents but as teenagers and young adults, many of us gravitated to something a little more forceful and belligerent with people like, Stokley Carmichael, Angela Davis, Hewy P. Newton, etc.

I think the next generation did the same thing and I also see how they took something like the Last Poets, and samples of our music, expanded on it and put their own spin to it.

R&B took elements of Gospel, Rock and Roll took elements of R& B....

I personally don't feel Hip hop or rap has placed a stain on the Black Community. Anyone who thinks we are all the same were going to think that whether hip hop/rap existed or not.

I don't like nor condone a lot of the images, violence and vulgarity from gangsta rap and I do see the influence but is that the truly the genres fault?

My daughter grew up with this genre and I can assure you she does not, nor has she ever pranced around like some hoochie mama on the arm of some gang banger. I'd be in jail and she would be pushing up daisy if she had....LOL...just joking (sort of:-))

Blaming the music for the behavior of our kids isn't taking responsibility in the role we played and I have a big pet peeve on personal responsibility issues.

Not all hip hop is bad Jill foster and listening to many of these young kids you can hear very profound poetry and prose. They put it to music with a beat I can live without....LOL...but that's just a personal preference on my part, not a condemnation of the entire genre.

I believe it's wrong to paint the genre with a broad brush and label it all bad just as I believe it's wrong to do the same to people.

You feel what you feel but I hope one day you take another listen with an open mind (not the gangsta stuff) you'd be surprise how some of it mirrors your own opinions and you just may find yourself bobbing your head to the monotonous beat....hahahaha

Now I still don't think hip hop should be in the RRHOF but that's not because I don't recognize the validity or the creative aspects of the genre. I simply think it should be placed in a category all it's own.
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jillfoster (jillfoster)
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Username: jillfoster

Post Number: 1310
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.54.98.109
Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 1:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well.. I do have to admit... I DO like Salt N Pepa's "Push It"... I know it's about sex, but I don't know... the song is not repulsive to me. Maybe because it's women singing it? I can't put my finger on that. One of the few groups that I thought had real artistry was Soul II Soul, but they were a fusion of so many things, there were elements of hip-hop, rap, but it was something unique. If today's music was more in that vein, I could get down with it... check them out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =KA1fiFPKWUg
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Ms. M (ms_m)
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Username: ms_m

Post Number: 9086
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 68.221.15.37
Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 1:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm familiar with the group. My daughter has turned me on to a lot of the music just as I have turned her on to mine. It all evens out in the end....LOL
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jillfoster (jillfoster)
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Username: jillfoster

Post Number: 1311
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 65.54.98.109
Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 1:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And to think that song I linked to is 19 years old... Makes me feel REALLY DAMNED OLD. It jsut fascinates me, because it contain elements of so many things, Hip hop, Jazz, Gamble and Huff, Opera, Rap, Psychadelic.... I just love creativity.
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Ms. M (ms_m)
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Username: ms_m

Post Number: 9088
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 68.221.15.37
Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 2:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can remember thinking hip hop/rap would never last....I was wrong....hahahahaha

I think it's sad that much of it has been ghettorized. I think the garbage is wearing thin on a lot of the youth though. It will take awhile for it to play out but a lot of it was nothing more than ignorant stereotypes. Like many of those types of things, some folks will never get a clue and will hold on to that BS but most will move on.
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Ms. M (ms_m)
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Username: ms_m

Post Number: 9089
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 68.221.15.37
Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 2:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jillfoster, I believe being creative takes many forms. A perfect example are covers. A singer can take a cover, sing it exactly like the original and there is nothing slightly creative about it....another person can take that song and put a new beat, or bend to the melody, a different emphasize on the notes on lyrics, and to me that shows creativity. I may not like it but I'll give a person credit for thinking in a different way. Isn't that one of the elements of creativity? Not just creating something new but also looking at something or executing something in a different way?

(Message edited by Ms._M on March 02, 2009)
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Timmy Funk (timmyfunk)
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Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 6:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Creativity and innovation have been and still are present in Rap music. It's just a question of where to look. Rather than site numerous examples, I've provided a time line of the genre to help fill the holes in your hypothesis, jill. Please read very carefully:

http://rap.about.com/od/hiphop 101/a/hiphoptimeline.htm
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Erik T (erik_t)
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Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 10:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Decent article, Timmyfunk... although they omitted Tom The Great "Sebastian" and that was a little later than 1940. No Gil Scott-Heron, either. I thought "The Revolution..." was regarded as a rather inspirational cut, although I know The Bottle (1975) was a way bigger hit. I wonder if Gil's debut lp, "Small Talk @ 125th and Lennox" sold too poorly to be regarded as an influential release, rather than one sought after years later by Gil's fans?
I know Jamaican dances started off much of what became early hip hop, and I think a few key figures in the 70's Bronx scene were of JA descent (not just Kool Herc), but the 70's hip hop made really made the genre their own. There are also Jamaican covers of Rapper's Delight (Hotter Reggae Music by Welton Irie) and The Message (guy who sounds like a gravelly voiced Frankie Paul). Tanya Winley does a heavy version of Rapper's Delight as well.
As for hip hop and the RnR Hall of Fame, I think the whole institution (Hall of Fame) is silly. The selections are so arbitrary, someone gets in for being influential, someone else gets in for selling a trillion records, someone else still, because they're tight with Jann Wenner, etc, that I don't know why even aging rock fans (I'm one, too!) pay any attention. They could put Ricky Martin in there for all I care.
On the other hand, if I dug the H-of-F thing, I would think hip hop acts who influenced rock bands should be right in there. Public Enemy and the Beastie Boys would deserve spots by default; love 'em or hate 'em for whatever reason, I think these two acts did the most, for better or for worse, to bring rapping to rock, metal and hardcore music.
By the way, has anyone seen the fine BBC TV documentary "Once Upon A Time In New York"? It's about the city's converging and diverging music scenes in the 70's. One of my favourite quotes was Chuck D bitching about Studio 54. I might have to play that clip on my radio show one of these weeks.
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Timmy Funk (timmyfunk)
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Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 11:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I dig Erik. But I put that time line up for the benefit of those whose knowledge of hip hop history is seriously lacking...know what I mean.

I haven't seen the documentary you speak of, but there is also a similar documentary that was done in 2007 called "NY77" that was broadcast on VH-1. You can tell that it wasn't made VH-1. Definitely had an independent feel to it, and didn't have that annoying rapid-fire MTV style edit to it. If you ever catch it on VH-1 Classic, watch it.
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T.L. Harris (tl_harris)
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Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen,

I have had a chance to read the thread and it has lead to a very good debate with valid points on both sides. The major reason I brought this up is because of something I was reminded of in an interview I saw some time ago of one of the Motown artist. I can’t remember who the artist was, or it could have been a producer, songwriter, or whoever, but what was said was as great as Motown was, and it was truly a great label and time Motown had to fight for spots on the major shows at the time. Be it Shindig, Hullabaloo, The Ed Sullivan Show, or whoever was hot at that time those great stars had to compete with not only themselves (Motown) to get those spots, but the emerging Stax scene, those on the Wand label, California Soul was hitting big at that time so there was Bobby Freeman and those on the California Soul scene. There was big competition for those spots. Well the same thing is happening now for the older artist trying to get into the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame. We can say all we want, but the fact remains is that many artist see the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame as one of the great achievements in ones career, and I know we may like it, or not like it, but if that is how they feel we have to respect it. Just to give an example in 2005 when The O’Jays were inducted, Eddie Levert said when he was inducted he said “It is an honor to be with B.B. King, U2, The Beatles and hey look you with the best, and now I’m one of them”. That says what The Rock N Roll Hall of Fame means to him. We all know that The O’Jays is one of the greatest groups of all-time, and the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame doesn’t validate their career, but being inducted is still at the top for them.

As for the emergence of Hip-Hop I have my problems with Hip Hop, and they are big problems, but that is today’s Hip Hop. We must remember that when Hip Hop started, or Hip Hop started, as we know it, it was primarily party music that took a serious turn in 1984 with Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five’s anthem The Message. Hip Hop did not take the turn that lead to what we have today until the late 80’s or early 90’s. It’s just like anything that starts making a great deal of money for the record companies once there is an opportunity for a great deal of money to be made, the dynamics of the music changes we all have seen it. This is not an excuse for Hip Hop to run amuck, because we have to be the system of checks and balances because for what it’s worth there is very good, positive Hip Hop out there. It is just like a discussion we had on the forum before about there is no good music being made today because we are looking for something that we already had. It was pointed out in that particular thread that yes there is some good music being made today if you take the time to look for it, and the same goes for Hip Hop yes there are positive artist out there Hip Hop artist that are lifting up the community, telling young black men to be men, and not denigrating young ladies, and telling young ladies to be ladies. That music is out there if you are willing to look for it.

Having said what I have said so far let me explain where I am with the Hip Hop and the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame. As I said in my first post we are in the Hip Hop generation, and Hip Hop, as we know it is turning 30 years old which makes the early artist of that era eligible for the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame. My argument goes back to what I said about the artist having to fight for TV time back in the 60’s, now they are having to fight the same fight with something those artist covet which is the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame. I will use this as an example, by the standards of the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame LL Cool J will be eligible next year. Johnnie Taylor has been eligible since 1993, and as it stands now LL Cool J’s chances look a whole lot better than Johnnie Taylor’s chances. I have been over Johnnie’s chart success on other threads so I will not go over it again here, but he deserves to be in there. IF, and do mean IF there is an argument for LL Cool J to go into the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame he definitely should NOT go in before Johnnie Taylor. Now Johnnie Taylor is not only competing with the Hip Hop generation but he is also competing with this generation’s rock artist like Metallica, and early pioneers who haven’t gotten for whatever reason. I also have to say, as I have been watching the list of inductees who have been going in there have been less and less black faces. In the last five years including 2009, there have 41 performers and non performers inducted into the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame, of those 41, 12 of them are black performers or non performers which is something else to take into consideration. I would love to see artist like Johnnie Taylor, The Marvelettes, The Spinners, Barry White, and many others get into the hall of fame, but with everything else they have to compete with now they have to compete with the Hip Hop generation. When you consider what the legends I have listed have done, to consider anyone from the Hip Hop generation is a shame and a scandal. Let us induct those who have worked long and hard for there even to be a Hip Hop generation. After we have done that maybe, just maybe we should go back and take a look at inducting those from the Hip Hop generation.


T.L. Harris
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jillfoster (jillfoster)
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Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 1:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

T.L. that is well said.... I can't disagree with anyhting youv'e said. I suppose when you get right down to it, my problem with hip hop today would be, that although I know hip hop with a decent message is out there, and exists...you have to LOOK for it, and look pretty hard. It's not at the top of the charts, slapping you across the face. There's good and bad in everything, I just only give respect to things where the good outweighs the bad. If an apple is just bruised, then I can cut the bruised part off and eat it, but if 3/4 is rotten and has worms inside, then I'll just throw it away. Even if there is a slice that you can still eat.
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Timmy Funk (timmyfunk)
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Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 1:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And what many are saying on this thread is that the part of Rap and Hip Hop that is rotten ain't no where near 3/4! That is just false...TOTALLY FALSE!

(Message edited by timmyfunk on March 02, 2009)
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No Place Like Motown (no_place_like_motown)
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Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 2:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

T.L. Harris makes a valid point.

I'm not opposed to the Hip Hop artists getting inducted into the R&R Hall of Fame. I'm not a big fan of Hip Hop, but like it or not, it is a form of popular music and if Reggae, Jazz and Blues artists have been inducted, so should the Hip Hop artists.  However, it does seem unfair that many artists from the 50's, 60's, & 70's era should have to compete with the Hip Hop and/or Heavy Metal artists to get inducted.

The R&R HOF should consider amending the induction rule where eligibility is based on the first year they recorded through the year they are being considered for induction.  For example, the Marvelettes first recorded in 1961.  If they were to be inducted in 2010, that would be a total of 49 years -- the total number of years would take preference and be considered over the current rule of 25 + years.  I think that's fair and will give our older artists a better chance of being inducted.

Some other artists that should be considered for future induction from the top of my head:

Mary Wells
Lou Rawls
Diana Ross [solo]
Stylistics
Roberta Flack
Jerry Butler
Brook Benton
Patti Labelle/Bluebelles/Labelle
Whispers
Manhattans
Parliament/Funkadelic
Commodores
Natalie Cole
Rick James
Donna Summer
Rufus feat. Chaka Khan
Pointer Sisters
Isaac Hayes
Bill Withers
Ben E. King
Dramatics

(Message edited by No Place Like Motown on March 02, 2009)

(Message edited by No Place Like Motown on March 02, 2009)
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Timmy Funk (timmyfunk)
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Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Parliament-Funkadelic was inducted in 1997. Just thought I'd let you know.
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T.L. Harris (tl_harris)
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Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jill,

I understand completely what you are saying, but I can’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Not only in terms of Hip Hop, but also in all genres of music if you want to find something good that really grooves you, you have to look for it. That includes today’s “Soul”, or today’s “R&B”, or today’s “Pop”. I put those terms in quotations because I use those terms loosely. I would say about 70 to 80 percent of the stuff that is passing for music now I would let my dog listen to, but when you find that 20 to 30 percent of truly good music out there believe me it is worth the hunt. As for the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame, if we were to use the logic of not inducting many of the artist performing now let stop inducting people that started making music after 1985 and call it a day, but we know that is not going to happen. With that understanding I guess the induction of Hip Hop artist is inevitability. The pursuit of finding good music will never stop. With that said what it comes down to is us as consumers is us demanding a better quality of music so that we may not have to look so hard.

T.L. Harris

P.S. Isaac Hayes was inducted in 2002 along with Jim Stewart, one of the founders of Stax Records

(Message edited by tl_harris on March 02, 2009)
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No Place Like Motown (no_place_like_motown)
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Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, TimmyFunk & T.L Harris for the correction.  Two down and 20+ more to go!

(Message edited by No Place Like Motown on March 02, 2009)
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Timmy Funk (timmyfunk)
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Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And now...the more simple approach. The following comments are from www.futurerocklegends.com. Obviously I'm going to highlight the comments that support my position first:



I think that in 25 years, we'll look back at this question and wonder why it was even a big deal. As bands continue to blur the lines between rock and rap, it will be ridiculous to try to shoehorn artists into these antiquated categories.

Posted by c.w. on Sunday, 12.10.06 @ 12:32pm



I really don't see rap and rock as opposing forces whatsoever and have no problem with rap being housed in the Rock Hall.

Posted by Kit on Sunday, 12.10.06 @ 12:54pm



I say who cares if hip-hop wasnt rock n roll, like it said, its about what they contribute to the music industry and there infleunce on people.
any genre of music and any artists who were an infleunce deserves to be inducted.

Posted by Edward on Thursday, 12.21.06 @ 04:49am


The only definition of rock and roll that covers all those inducted as performers in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame is one I heard attributed to Alan Freed, the deejay who popularized the term. I am currently looking for where and when he said this, but his answer was "race records." We now call "race records" by another name, "rhythm and blues", suggested to Paul Ackerman of Billboard by reporter Jerry Wexler who went on to Atlantic.

To put it bluntly, rock and roll encompasses R&B and all its bastard stepchildren. That includes doo wop, rockabilly, 60s girls groups, surf music, soul, British invasion, pop rock, blues rock, reggae, country rock, folk rock, psychedelic, progressive rock, metal, jazz fusion, soft rock, bubblegum, disco, arena rock, punk, hard rock, new wave, new romantic, techno, alternative, quiet storm, electronica and, yes, even rap. Whether Freed actually said this or not, whether the nominators actually thought this or not, this is the only definition I could think of that covers all the acts.

Posted by Charles Crossley Jr on Tuesday, 01.2.07 @ 00:19am

Just a few choice comments to mull over.
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T.L. Harris (tl_harris)
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Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 3:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Timmy,

I understand that Hip Hop is accepted, and weather I care about the artist getting in is not the point. The point as I see it is those legends that are not in the Hall of Fame. As No Place Like Motown has put it, there are 20+ people that he has mentioned that are not in the HOF, and deserve to be there. All of the people on that list have been waiting for over 40 years to get in, and compared to those legends you have the “upstarts” getting in before them. I am saying that is not fair. I understand the Hip Hop generation is going in I understand that, but at the same time, how do we account for the travesty of the legends that were mentioned not getting in there. Maybe the system needs to change; maybe we need to hold the HOF accountable for this. As I said earlier the HOF means a great deal to these artist no matter how we feel about it. The HOF is special to them and if they want to be inducted, if they deserve to be inducted then they should be inducted instead of being overlooked.

T.L. Harris
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Timmy Funk (timmyfunk)
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Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 3:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't get me wrong TL, I'm not trying to come off as a "do or die" advocate for rap and hip hop. I'm a Funkateer first and foremost and I know that there are many Funk bands that haven't been inducted into the RRHOF, aside from the numerous Soul artists that have also been ignored. To think that someone like Janet Jackson could be inducted in the near future before Chaka Khan or Roberta Flack doesn't sit right with me. I'm just making the point that excluding rap artists at this late date is senseless and ass-backwards.

Then again heavy metal (which I am mainly no fan of) has also been overlooked.
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kamasu (kamasu)
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Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 3:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wasn't Jerry Butler inducted with the Impressions?

I agree the Hall should do a better job at inducting more legends from the fifties, sixties and seventies, but I don't believe some Rap or Hip Hop artists should be excluded.

And, indeed, more Funk & Soul bands from the Seventies should be inducted.

Three off the top of my head

Rufus featuring chaka Khan
The Commodores
The Ohio Players

(Message edited by kamasu on March 02, 2009)
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Timmy Funk (timmyfunk)
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Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're right Kam. Jerry Butler was inducted with the Impressions.
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No Place Like Motown (no_place_like_motown)
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Jerry should still be inducted as a solo; Jerry recorded longer as a solo artist than as an Impression. The same can be said for Diana Ross.
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Timmy Funk (timmyfunk)
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Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And here is the contradiction: Paul McCartney has been inducted twice, yet no one is going to tell me that his solo career is anywhere near as influential as his career with the Beatles. You never hear any prominent post-1980 rock or pop artist citing McCartney's solo career as a major influence on their sound. Ironic, considering how many hits he's had on his own.
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No Place Like Motown (no_place_like_motown)
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Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 4:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Timmy,

I agree with you on Paul. They probably based his solo induction on the numerous amount of hits he had as a solo and with the group Wings in the 70's. By the early 80's, his recordings weren't make much noise on the charts, except for those duets with Stevie & Michael Jackson.

That being said, Chaka is another artist that should also be inducted twice for her years with Rufus and as a solo. Her career as both a group member and a solo artist were highly influential in both the pop/R&B/funk genres.
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Timmy Funk (timmyfunk)
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Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agreed NPLM.

Now if you REALLY want to get strict, no one that made records after 1959 should be inducted. Historians love to site 1959 as the year that Rock and Roll fell apart due to various unexpected events. The genre doesn't get another shot in the arm until The Beatles and Motown hit the scene. I know that I'm simplifying things somewhat, but it shows that there are many angles to come from with this conversation.

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